Sat
May 24 2008
12:06 pm
By: onetahiti
Newsweek has its list of the best US public high schools, as noted by Whitescreek. It also has an article about the trend to smaller schools that relates to a recurring Roane County debate over school size: Small Schools Rising.
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So the smaller a school is
So the smaller a school is in Roane County, the better its performance, according to that metric. But that is exactly the opposite of what we see.
It's just not that simple. A far better metric is the money spent per pupil. Every school in our area that outperforms us...outspends us...And they are far larger schools as well.
Logic
"So the smaller a school is in Roane County, the better its performance, according to that metric."
That statement does not follow logically. :( The facts that on a national level there is a trend towards smaller schools and some smaller schools are better than some larger ones do not at all combine to say that size is inversely proportionate to performance, here or anywhere.
Stick to logic--and don't try to lay bad logic onto me--if you want me to ever answer further. I had hoped for better.
-- OneTahiti
But the goal is to transform
But the goal is to transform Roane's currently disappointing Schools into better ones for the students and better values for the taxpayers. Pointing to a trend one way or the other doesn't give us much to go on. There was a trend to "new math" as I remember, that was essentialy incomprehensible to children.
We keep having the school size debate with no clear resolution. What matters far more is how a school is organized, managed, and supported. The big flaw in the Newsweek list is that they make no account for magnet schools or affluent schools in their method. I would rank a school with 38% free lunch pupils higher than a school with 4% and a similar result, for instance, as a clear indication of doing more with less raw material.
Anyway...the size matters argument obscures our real challenge in Roane County. As far as I can tell, the powers that be don't seem to give a rats ass about our schools and that's the real problem.
That metric doesn't establish a causal relationship, WC...
... only a statistical relationship. As I understand the nature of such metric relationships, it does not claim that small = better. It does definitely say, however, that large is not necessarily better. Such statistics can't "demand" that a given school size MUST generate a certain quality of school. It definitely proves, however, that it can happen. Too many people mistake the definite establishment of a statistical relationship as equivalent of a causal relationship, and that's painting with too broad a logic brush.
That said, although I usually agree with most of what OneT says, personal knowledge requires that I disagree with one thing: The notion that the powers tha be don't give a rat's ass. I have talked personally with a number of the powers that be, over time and about different subjects (i.e. not just concentrated on the issue of school size to school quality). I can guarantee you that the ones I have talked to do give a rat's ass. They are also smart enough to know that they don't necessarily have all the right answers just because they CARE about the right answers. Now I obviously haven't had long-term heart-to-hearts with ALL the powers that be, but I have been fortunate enough to have them with a number of them, and am convinced that OneT"s impression is inaccurate, at least about those individiuals. I cannot speak for everybody that constitutes the powers that be, either on the School Board or the Commission side of things. I also know there are SOME of them who probably couldn't hit the ground falling out of a tree. But I don't think that's a majority.
One thing I will add is that when you're in the position they're in, it's often difficult to separate the sheep-shi* from Arbuckle's Coffee. Heres why: Many of them are bombarded by statistics that are context free, and that are carved out of some study somewhere that "proves" what the user wants it to prove. People throw those statistics at each other the way those over-zealous religious folk throw Bible verses at each other as "proof-texts" - they're used as hand grenades to lob at the opposition in order to defeat them. That's NOT the way statistics OR Bible verses are correctly used.
As Mark Twain said: "Most men use statistics the way a drunkard uses a lamp-post: for support rather than illumination.
I don't have a problem with OneT's support of smaller schools in general, because I know OneT has enough sense to know that statistics don't constitute a rule, they're made from observations. OneT also has some very good information at hand about how well a small school could work. May or may not cost as much money as a large school - depends, I imagine. I just disagree with the assessment that nobody gives a rat's ass among the powers that be. Maybe we could help them out.
RB
RB, I think you gave credit
RB, I think you gave credit for the "rat's ass" quote to the wrong person. I believe that was White's Creek who wrote that.
Harrimanite - THANKS!
Boy what a goof. I didn't think that SOUNDED like OneT, but I had that impression in my head and instead of checking it before I hit "post" I GOOFED BIG TIME!
ONETAHITI - please accept my apologies and some basic groveling at your feet!
I still stand by the statement that many but not all DO give a rat's ass. Caring isn't always defined by one person's standards of what they should do, even someone as learned and wise as WC. People can care about things quite deeply and STILL not do them exactly the way WC - or RB - would prefer they do them.
Sorry again, OneT!
RB
thanks for catching that, Harrimanite!
The MisQuote OneT Thread?
I think OneT was just wanting to share an article she found interesting, to follow up on earlier discussions. Let's not call her a drunkard leaning on a lamp-post quite yet.
Did not - and would not -
Call OneT a drunkard leaning on a lamp-post. I did not say nor do I think that OneT is misusing statistics. I think those that are too quick to infer causal relationships from statistical relationships are in danger of doing that. I did not see OneT doing that. I'm glad OneT shared the article that did have bearing on what the other thread was talking about. It adds depth to the discussion.
RB
I stand by my comments...:>)
I would be gratified to see a quote regarding improving education by the folks who have the power, the County Commission. So far, I've seen nothing positive but lots of things like "$47 million is too much. They'll just have to cut costs."
The School board does a ton of work on a capital plan and the Commission takes a few minutes and shoots it down. You are correct that some of them care..Commissioner Harmon took a lot of personal grief because he proposed a plan that would do away with a couple of football teams. I salute him!
Stand by your comments all you want to...
You're entitled to do that, WC.
Yet the fact remains that people not doing what you believe they should do is not necessarily the same as not giving a rat's ass.
As much as I have learned of your integrity and your wisdom, I have not seen such as would allow me to believe you have risen to such a position as to be able to proclaim that not doing things they way that seems best TO YOU is by definition "not giving a rat's ass."
RB
How about this, RB
Why don't you give us an example of the positive things that the Commissioners have done, as a whole, that would indicate they support our school system? That would make your case and I would stand corrected.
It's easy to criticize, but
It's easy to criticize, but a lot harder to offer a solution. What would YOUR solution(s) be, WC?
I liked Harmon's Ideas.
But actually...The solution is to charge the School Board with coming up with a solution and then doing what has to be done to make it happen.
Then, if I were the school Board, I would look around for a University program to study and make recommendations. Usually we go straight to a Consulting firm with a big Construction company and they come back with a solutioin that somehow matches up with what they think we will spend, even if it doesn't have to cost that much.
I could go on but that should give you a picture.
Big vs. Small, Again.
A couple of issues here. Funding must be considered. Personally, I feel spending money in our schools is and investment in our children and community. Most do but the key is how it is deployed or how you counter mismanagement. Mismangement will always be a concern. We find ourselves at a crossroad, most communities in our financial situation find the options limited. So what's the best solution in our case?
I like the thought of small community based schools. Perhaps that's the role our elementary & and middle schools can continue serving. Close to home and an element of knowing most of the teachers & parents is appealing. Larger high schools seem to have maintenance & upkeep cost benefits, not necessarily operational benefits. Educational opportunities with respect to subject offerings grow in scale at schools where more students attend -- an often cited plus. So we as a community must sort it out under our ability to finance or "living within our means" because no matter who claims the high ground in the best way to educate our children, it comes back to what tax payers desire & can afford (willingness) to pay.
I'd like your thoughts on a compromise of small community-based grade P-K to 8th grade schools coupled with two larger (1500 students) centrally located high schools. Until the citizens of Roane County speak out, it seems we're sidelined. My opinion only. Please excuse errors -- this message delivered by way of smart (maybe) phone.
this message delivered by
I readily admit that my phone is smarter than I am.
I want to see a transportation grid for the two school proposal. It's a fine idea but it may not work because of the time it would take for some students to get travel.
However, Nothing will work because nothing will be done until we get rid of the old mindsets that hold us back. We need to face up to the fact that our schools aren't working as they are, and the longer we wait the worse it gets and the more it will cost to fix.
What I would like to see is a poll of every County Commissioner asking them what their plan is to fix the schools? Wouldn't that be interesting?