Tue
Nov 18 2008
03:11 pm

The team at change.com has come up with a formidable instrument for vetting anybody that wants to be hired and appointed by the new administration. I was going to attach the file so you could read it, but it is bigger (3MB) than the limit set by this forum for file uploading. Suffice it to say it is a lengthy document.

One of the questions on the vetting form, which addresses 63 topic areas, is:
"Do you or any members of your immediate family own a gun? If so, provide complete ownership and registration information. Has the registration ever lapsed? Please also describe how and by whom it is used and whether it has been the cause of any personal injuries or property damage."

This marks the first time a president has ever asked potential administration employees if they are exercising one of their constitutional rights as part of the weeding-out process.

See this article in FindLaw for interesting commentary:
(link...)

Here is a link to the questionnaire itself:
(link...)

I think this level of scrutiny - which is a mild word - will ultimately not serve the President Elect well in that it would tend to rule out a lot of people who could be beneficial. Here is a pertinent comment taken from the link I gave above:
" Or suppose an applicant for an important position in the Department of Homeland Security at one time served on the governing board of a charitable organization alongside a now-respectable member of the community who was, many years ago, a member of a domestic terrorist organization. Surely, as President-elect Obama knows better than anyone, that fact is irrelevant to the applicant's current qualifications. And yet, it would no doubt count as an 'association with any person, group or business venture that could be used-even unfairly-to impugn or attack [the applicant's] character and qualifications for government service.'

During the course of the Presidential campaign, then-Senator Obama forcefully argued that voters should ignore stories about Sarah Palin's daughter's pregnancy and his own association with former Weather Underground co-founder William Ayers. If these matters were irrelevant to Palin's and Obama's respective fitness for the Vice Presidency and the Presidency, why is the President-elect now seeking similar information from applicants for jobs in his administration?"

With regard to the apparently pending appointment of Hillary as Secretary of State, and all the known baggage that she brings along, one wonders how vigorously, if at all, the big questionnaire will be applied to her. Or will it only be vigorously applied to those that he or the team hasn't already made a decision about. All those who they want on board will come un-vetted? I don't know. Does leave a question, though.

I guess you can't take the politics out of politics :-)

And lest I be kvetched at for opposing, my sincere hopes are that the new administration can be all that its ardent supporters believe it can be, and more.

RB

Register guns?

If failing to register or allowing one's gun registration to lapse is a disqualifier for a job in the Obama White House, there will be no Tennesseans in the new administration.

For that matter, residents from forty-six of our fifty states will be locked out for the same reason.

Current Federal law prohibits a national gun registry and only four states (that I am aware of) require or have gun registration - Hawaii, Maryland, Mass., and New York.

Looks like there will be a lot of hula skirted Yankees at the White House come January!

Vetting

The questionnaire doesn't say that any particular answer to any particular answer will "disqualify" the applicant. It justs asks for information -- a lot of it. That goes with the territory when you are applying for high-level positions.

I have a different take

Obama takes office in a very poisonous time. His team needs to know as much as they can and not be surprised by anything in relation to their appointees.

Operatives on the right have very little taste for fair play and will waste no time in attacking Obama for any little perceived weakness, as we have seen in the campaign. He has to be prepared.

These things are not necessarily disqualifiers. I think you are stretching it to reach that conclusion. In many arenas there are conflicts of interest that have to be dealt with. They are only disqualifiers in matters of state that deal specifically with them. I sit on several non profit Boards and we state our conflicts at every meeting. When a matter involving them comes up we simply recuse ourselves and take a break from the action.

WC

I see it the same way as you, WC. If I were Obama I wouldn't want any more negative surprises than necessary. I am sure there will be plenty once the new administration delves into the mess left from the past 8 years.

-- OneTahiti

Why ask about gun registration?

When only four States require it?

My guess, and this is not directed at Obama, is that some functionary threw in that question with a wink and a nod to the gun control lobby, without realizing that it was pointless.

On this one I have give President-Elect Obama a pass. Not even President-Elect Obama can do everything by himself.

Finally, isn't this extensive questionarie meant to do two things:

Provide vetting info on the applicants, and;

Show everyone that the new administration is serious in establishing that it will be operating by a published set of standards. Isn't this an example of change.

PS: WC, you wrote Operatives on the right have very little taste for fair play and will waste no time in attacking Obama

In actuality aren't the only people who believe that one side is better or worse than the other partisans?
"Operatives" on both the left and the right are paid to bash, smear, and tear down the other side.

Both sides, left and right, have their attack dogs and mugslingers.

Those of us who haven't bought into either party line horse-laugh at claims that the right has very little taste for fair play - it sounds too much like the pot calling the kettle black.

Careful Brant. Haven't you

Careful Brant. Haven't you figured out that WC and his power of critical thinking cannot be challenged. He is right (or correct as referring to WC and the word "right" in the same sentence probaly has a holy water to vampire effect on him) and that is the end of it. His side is righteous and without fault while the Republicans/right are vile and hardly worthy of breathing air.

Well let's see...

Show me an Obama ad that rises to the level of calling John McCain a Muslim while dissing his Christian minister?

Show me an Obama ad that calls John McCain a terrorist for associating with G. Gordon Liddy, an unrepentent domestic terrorist and McCain fundraiser?

Show me any Obama ad that rose to the level of this?

THE ELECTION IS OVER! Get

THE ELECTION IS OVER!
Get over it and move on.

Well, no it's not

We have two senate races left to decide. Georgia, where Republican Saxby Chambliss originally won his seat with a despicable ad campaign questioning disabled war veteran Max Cleland's patriotism comparing hinm to Osama bin Laden, and a recount in Minnesota where 200 some odd votes separate Al Franken from the legally troubled Norm Coleman.

Seven time convicted felon Ted Stevens of Alaska has lost to Mark Begich, so even Alaskans seem to be rejecting Republican criminals as their senators, though not by much. Corruption doesn't seem to be a disqualifier for conservatives.

I agree !

The election is over so some need to move on. We tolerated 8 yrs of GWB's term. Since Obama announced the FBI has investigated more than 200 threats against his life. Its not surprising to me that he is carefully
checking out his appointments.
As for WC his rules and usage states his political leanings and I have no doubt he can hold his own w/ the best of them. It doesn't bother him when you disagree w/him But maybe some people need to start their own blog if they are having trouble accepting "what is" History was made on Nov 4th and I'm thankful this happened during my lifetime.

I say a prayer for him and America every night!

RB

I heard the application even asks for every online and chat handle name ever used. I'm not sure I would put grasshopeer on there..lol.
I would guess seeing the costly results of not vetting Palin nearly enough might have prompted some concern for thoroughness.

It does ask for that, GH

And every email you've ever sent that could piss somebody off. Woops, that's email, text message (cell phone - how in hell are you supposed to keep those records?!), or IM (again - how do you store those as records?). Or blog entry. It definitely asks for blog entries/writings. Guess we're ALL here relegated off the A list onto the D list ;-)

RB

screen names

Years ago on CompuServe, before the WWW, each person would show up as a screenname and as a login node. For some years in the parts of Compuserve I frequented there seemed to be only one person logging in from the Knoxville (KTN) node. Because of this I could use even many different screennames in a day and folks would still recognize me by the KTN. So I had fun with screennames: oneinsulartahiti, notquitegretchen, nocloudswowater, rimaforestgirl, laninaentrelasrosas, presionlaspalomas, excitationofdoves, seinundzeit, dedondesoy, &achoirofangels, the list goes on and on. There is no way I could ever remember all of the hundreds I used just on that one provider.

-- OneTahiti

in todays time,

This is a must have, all future president elects will do the same. The information highway allows access to a wealth of information and everybodies closest creaks open a little more as technology expands.

Actually, I would think that if you were going to serve in a Presidential Cabinet, that their should be a similar process to go through that I had to go through to get a Top Secret Clearance. I am sure they will be exposed to way more nationally critical info than I ever was. That process makes this doc look like "see spot run".

Question?

Should candidates for the office of President be vetted like potential White House employees? Shouldn't they also be able to get a Top Secret Clearance?

If you have been subjected to a security clearance, do you think President-Elect Obama could pass?

Before everyone flames me, this is a legitimate question. Shouldn't all managers and employers be expected to pass muster just as their subordinates or employees. Good for the goose... that kind of thing?

I have never been subjected to a security clearance but I've heard that it is rigorous. At K-25, Y-12, and then X-10 when my Dad's security checks were done he was questioned extensively about rumored associations dating back to 1919 of his Father (my Grandfather). My Dad was born in 1932!

I would think Obama would

I would think Obama would score significantly more secure in a security clearance than John McCain.

McCain has a history of erratic behavior that Obama does not have, whether it is his heavy drinking and hushed up fatal car wreck, to his inability to fly airplanes without crashing them. McCain alsoo has private associations with convicted domestic terrorist, G. Gordon Liddy.

Obama has none of that.

None of that? And we would

None of that? And we would know that how? From his extensive experience in politics, or in the armed services, or from the in-depth investigative reporting conducted by his campaign PR firm (aka the mainstream media)? I mean freaking Joe the Plumber went through a more extensive investigation of his past by the MSM than did Obama.

Obama just has connections to racist, domestic terrorist, crooked politicians, corrupt financiers etc. Those of course are just the ones that we know about. But yeah, McCain was probably the riskier pick.

The inability to fly airplanes without crashing them is a particularly low blow even for you WC. I'm sure McCain tried to avoid getting shot down but those pesky Viet-Cong wouldn't play nice. And yes, I know he had other (at least one) plane crashes that weren't combat related but still at least he has a record to stand on and has accomplished some things in his life.

You have to be willing to take risk and put yourself out there if you are going to lead. Obama has played it safe through his entire political career and so we now have the least experienced president in maybe the history of the US. I hope he does well but I would sure feel better if I had some way of predicting his chances of success based on past performance rather than just crossing my fingers.

WC, for someone who claimed to have such contempt for the negative campaigning this election cycle you sure haven't missed a chance to partake in some character assasination your self. Heck, your guy even won but you still feel the need to grind your heel on McCain's failed campaign. Drink a little more of you favorite adult beverage and relax a bit. :)

Hold on.

I asked a question or rather sought Limeywade's opinion and you (WC) attack John McCain. What's up?

Had Senator McCain won and was sending out questionnaires, wouldn't we be asking the same question of him? Heck, Senator McCain wasn't elected and you tore in reeling off a whole bunch of reasons you feel would disqualify him from a Top Secret rating.

Your response clearly indicates that it is fair to look into the loser's past concerning whether or not he could pass security screening. However, you seem to feel that it is unfair to ask the same of the winner.

Why else would you become so hostile?

Common sense tells us that the man at the top should have to pass the same litmus tests as the people up and down the ladder below him. Limeywade sounded like he has or had a security clearance and had been through the process, as had my Dad. I have no idea what Limeywade’s answer would but I thought his insight might be instructive. Thus, I asked Limeywade’s opinion....

Should candidates for the office of President be vetted like potential White House employees? Shouldn't they also be able to get a Top Secret Clearance?

If you have been subjected to a security clearance, do you think President-Elect Obama could pass?

WC, does it make sense to be so defensive of our President-Elect – so defensive that the mere asking of a question appears to upset you.

WC, President-Elect Obama is many things, but he is not perfect and I have heard him say as much (he tells us so in his autobiographies). Like the rest of us, he is good and bad.

President-Elect Obama doesn’t have to be perfect to be a good or even great President. Besides wouldn’t you be more creditable if you stopped insisting that he is without sin?

Most of us can live with and even admire President Obama the man, but I don’t think very many will be able to accept or believe in President Obama the perfect man.
-----------------------------------------------------

For the record G. Gordon Liddy was not convicted of domestic terrorism.

Liddy was convicted of conspiracy, burglary, and illegal wiretapping, and received a 20-year sentence and was ordered to pay $40,000 in fines. No bombs, no guns, no deaths.

Libby began serving the sentence on January 30, 1973. On April 12, 1977, President Jimmy Carter commuted Liddy's sentence to eight years....
from link => (link...)

I'll give you that Liddy was

I'll give you that Liddy was not convicted of terrorism, the crimes had not yet entered the code at that point. However, let's examine Liddy's goals. What was the purpose of his crimes and what other plans had he made? He planned to kill investigative journalists for Richard Nixon and kidnap protesters at the Republican convention. His goal was to subvert the democratic process. Nice guy for McCain to hang around with.

So how would that play in a security clearance?

Let's face it. Many

Let's face it. Many politicians have shady associations, even presidential candidates and presidents. What about Bush/Watts/Bin Laden family associations? It's doubtful either Bush could pass. The list goes on and on with politicians.

In response

The new DCID rules initiated by Bush about 6 years ago state that a person cant have smoked weed more than 11 times in their life and a few other rules about other drugs or else they will need a Homeland Security Director waiver to get a TS. When I had by background check and polygraph 9 years ago, it was more flexible. The drug rule was you couldnt have done any substantial amount of drugs within 7 years of application. There was not a differentiation between types.

So would Obama pass. I asked a current FBI background check employee whose job is to vet TS candidates and he said Obama would absolutely pass the background check but he would need a waiver based upon his drug history. His experiences overseas wont hold against him as most affluent people have these and his associations would actually be a plus (because he could have several highly influential politcal people write letters on his character). He stated that his "bad associations" such as Wright and Ayers don't hold water from a FBI standpoint as they understand the nature of politics and these people are not considered a threat to national security. It would be the drug history that would conflict. Passing the polygraph part just means he has to have told the truth on the extensiver paperwork you have to fill out so I doubt he would be as stupid to not be able to pass this.

I will point out that Obama had an extensive background check done (equivalent to what I had) when he was elected senator and has 24/7 surveillance on his current activities because of the Freedom Act. So if he was a communist or terroist I guarantee he would already be in Club Gitmo. The US isnt as trusting as you might think especially after 9/11. I will never forget driving past the pentagon watching it smoke and wondering, "How in the world did concrete catch on fire?"

Thank you

Limeywade, well done. I take your reply as being very authoritative.

Question asked and answered.... What many people see as disqualifing isn't. Gives us some perspective when we want to bash winners AND losers.

WC, that wasn't so bad was it?

If we had just waited on Limeywade's response our typing fingers wouldn't be so tired.

authoritative I am not

Please note that my information comes from friends that I still have working in the DC area. I havent lived there since 2002 nor have I held any cleared position since then. Things change everyday and all I hear are tidbits along the way or when I ask a specific question like I did to my friend.

I will say though concerning McCain, the bigger problem would be with Cindy McCain and her arrest for prescription pill abuse. That would be heavily looked at. I am unaware of any past criminal or drug history for Michelle Obama.

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