Sun
Jun 7 2009
08:16 pm
By: WhitesCreek
There's more to this than just stealing elections. Let's just say...What if a State legislator had a voting machine company in his District that sold voting machines to lots of Counties in TN but did not currently have a system to read paper ballots? Would that Legislator do all in his power to stop the Voter Confidence Act form going through, thereby keeping most of TN from buying good machines (like the ones Roane County has been using) from another company?
I'm just sayin'...
More on the shenanigans from Mary Mancini
Civic Organizations Urge Lawmakers to Follow Through on Trustworthy Voting Systems
A coalition of civic organizations is urging the Tennessee General Assembly to stop legislation that would delay the state's move toward verifiable elections. Common Cause, Gathering to Save Our Democracy, the Tennessee League of Women Voters, and the national organizations VerifiedVoting.org, Voter Action, and Voters Unite.org call for state lawmakers to reject House Bill 614 and Senate Bill 872. The full Senate may vote on SB 872 on Monday.
The two bills would either delay implementation of the Tennessee Voter Confidence Act (TVCA), or delete key provisions of the law. The TVCA requires that by 2010, requires all votes be cast in Tennessee elections be cast on paper ballots marked by the voter. The ballots will be read and counted by scanning machines, and after the election, every county will conduct a hand-counted audit of a random sample of precincts to verify the scanners' tallies.
The TVCA was enacted last year after the Tennessee Advisory Commission in Intergovernmental Relations (TACIR) recommended that the state adopt voting technology with a reliable, independent paper record of every vote, and recommended that election officials use those records to conduct routine hand-counted audits of electronic vote tallies.1
“The Assembly passed the Voter Confidence Act in order to provide voters with verifiable ballots and election results we can trust,” said Bernie Ellis of the citizen group Gathering to Save Our Democracy. “There is no legitimate reason not to implement this law on schedule,” said Ellis.
The state has sufficient federal funds on hand to pay for the law’s shift to better equipment. All but two counties in Tennessee now use purely electronic voting machines. In recent years, paperless electronic voting systems have been strongly criticized by leading computer scientists. The TACIR report noted that if Tennessee's electronic voting machines store votes incorrectly because of malfunction or fraud, recounts are “useless.”2
Tennessee's law is part of a nationwide trend toward paper ballot voting systems. In the 2008 general election, the percentage of votes cast on paper ballots rose significantly, accounting for almost 60% of the total. A majority of the states also now have a provision for post-election hand audits. The TVCA requires voter-marked paper ballots rather than cash-register type “paper trail” printouts, because paper ballots are more durable, and because many voters fail to check secondary printouts. Since 2006, no states have added paper-trail printers to electronic voting machines.
“Everything depends on the ability of the citizenry to have that confidence their votes are being counted accurately. It's unconscionable to delay,” said VerifiedVoting.org president Pamela Smith.
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Eco warriors and politics
- Biden administration to roll back the Betsy DeVos Title IX rules (TN Lookout)
- Stockard on the Stump: Zombie bills haunt lawmakers as 113th General Assembly nears (merciful) end (TN Lookout)
- Tennessee college students grapple with food insecurity (TN Lookout)
- Tennessee Legislature can aid state’s obesity problem (TN Lookout)
- Senate rejects two impeachment articles against DHS Secretary Mayorkas (TN Lookout)
- Senate education chair: Voucher agreement needed by week’s end for passage (TN Lookout)
- John Cole’s Tennessee: Reading, writing, ‘rithmetic and reloading (TN Lookout)
- Budget clears House, Senate panels, but voucher bill on hold (TN Lookout)
Science and stuff
- These windpipe cells trigger coughs to keep water out of the lungs (Science News Daily)
- Jupiter’s moon Io may have been volcanically active ever since it was born (Science News Daily)
- A puzzling mix of artifacts raises questions about Homo sapiens’ travels to China (Science News Daily)
- Tiny treadmills show how fruit flies walk (Science News Daily)
- Hibernating bumblebee queens have a superpower: Surviving for days underwater (Science News Daily)
- What can period blood reveal about a person’s health? (Science News Daily)
- In ‘Get the Picture,’ science helps explore the meaning of art (Science News Daily)
- This robot can tell when you’re about to smile — and smile back (Science News Daily)
- This newfound longhorn beetle species is unusually fluffy (Science News Daily)
- 50 years ago, scientists wondered how birds find their way home (Science News Daily)
Discussing
- The Constitution Won, Trump Lost in Colorado...Now What? (1 reply)
- Our Very Own George Santos, TN GOP Congressman Ogles is Pretty Much Insane (1 reply)
- Destroying Jim Jordan, All Without Mentioning Jordan's Support For Sexual Abusing Athletes (1 reply)
- Want to See Who Owns Your State Senators and Reps? (1 reply)
- 9-11 Strangest Uninvestigated Fact (2 replies)
- It's Gettin' Real, Now...Gloria Johnson Made Wonkette! (1 reply)
- Does Rep Fritts Want School Shooters to Have Access to AR 15s? (2 replies)
- How many Trees Died Trying Save Us From Global Warming? (1 reply)
- Feel Good Friday,,,From our "If Only" Dept. (1 reply)
- Tennessee Education Worsens Under Bill Lee and GOP (1 reply)
- The Most Important Thing You Will Read Today! (1 reply)
- Friday Toons (1 reply)
Lost Medicaid Funding
To date, the failure to expand Medicaid / TennCare has cost the State of Tennessee ? in lost federal funding.
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- Whitehouse.gov
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- City of Oliver Springs Code
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- City of Rockwood Code
- Congressman Charles 'Chuck' J. Fleischmann
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- Rep. Ron Travis
- Roane County
- Roane Schools
- St. Sen. Ken Yager
Candidates:
"Voting machine expert criticizes "clueless" industry report"
17 Tennessee counties use ESS machines..
I count 17 counties that are using the ESS machines. We should hope these machines or other similar EVSs are not what they are pushing for by trying to undo the TVCA.
These machines have touch screens with known defects that can be exploited for vote flipping if they are not properly calibrated. We sure don't need anymore of those.
Link
Or is it something new? Counties in the state are currently using 4 different systems.
Link
The good news is, it looks like 32 counties use the Hart eSlate as we do.
This demo shows why paper ballots are essential for voter trust in election results. Unfortunately a printout following a cast ballot using strictly electronic methods, still does not provide proof of an accurate vote as the video demonstrates.
Using the Hart eSlate is not "good news"
The Hart eSlate is readily hackable. See the many links in this Google search on the subject: (link...)
-- OneTahiti
Good news
I simply meant that compared to some others in use,it's the lesser of evils.
Of course any EVS will have some degree of insecurity.
Physical security is probably just as big a problem.
Any readily hackable voting machine is not the "lesser of evils"
Mac,
With a readily hackable voting machine system, he who hacks last, wins. There is nothing "lesser" about that evil.
-- OneTahiti
More on the subject
Once again it looks like the TN legislature against everybody else...
(link...)
Questions about voter fraud
Good questions.
My responses to these good questions are in bold face (not to yell, but to set apart).
And it's a problem and wrong no matter who tries to do it. I'm not at all trying to encourage complacency by saying voting fraud has always been a problem. Rather to point out that it's nothing new that has been brought to us by one vendor or another, or by one method or another.
RB
Italics
is a also a good way to accomplish "setting apart" your salient points, and does not have the perception of inflammatory communication that bolding does.
Living and teaching Earth friendly sustainable agricultural practices.
It is a matter of personal taste and perception...
It is easier - especially in this forum graphically - to visually distinguish bold than italics.
If it is your wish to be insulted or yelled at by bold, there is nothing I can do to change that.
Perception is as much in the eye of the beholder as it is in the originator if not more so.
In most internet forums in which I have participated, all-caps is the practice that is considered yelling rather than bolding.
But if you want italics to be the rule here on this forum, so be it. You are in a much better position to decide such policies than I.
I can't even try to make nice without having my hand called...
RB
Bold is indeed much easier to distinguish than italic
RB,
I do use italics where necessary in an English sense, but these old eyes do have trouble seeing it sometimes. I wouldn't mind if everything were in bold, just to make things easier to read.
To me, writing in bold is for emphasis and is not shouting.
-- OneTahiti
Most of this is beside the pooint
We have a much better system that we have all used in Roane County. Oversight is easy and it's much cheaper than the old way. It's also difficlut to hack, unlike the system we had been using.
You guys seem to be arguing that since both sides have committed voter fraud at some point in history that we shouldn't do anything about it now.
Voting body and soul
People seem to vote where their heart is which is not necessarily where their physical body is or their actual property address is. Violation of the body, but peace with the soul. It is happening. Another enforcement issue. Police check your identification when pulled over for speeding, but no one checks your ID to verify your address when voting on issues of great importance.
They do mine...
Of course, they can't check based on issues of great importance. But they have never failed to verify that I live in the correct area when the vote called for location-specific requirements (such as voting on a city-limited issue).
RB
What do they check - your
What do they check - your voter registration card or government ID (driver's license, etc)?
Either one, LOC
For instance, if I am early vooting at the courthouse, but I'm voting in a city election or on a referendum that involves the city, or on someone only running in a certain area of the city, they will check my DL's physical addres or my voter registration to make sure it's verifying I am qualified to vote based on where I live. I've had 'em check either one in the past.
RB
If they are using the voter
If they are using the voter registration card, then it would seem that they are not verifying the addresses to make sure that the person lives where they are registered. If someone registered 30 years ago and still has the same card, however, they had moved 5 times, and then the voter registration card is basically useful only to know that you were registered. I suppose that they do ask the verbal question whether the person still lives at that address. However, if they are dead set to vote, then I assume that they will vote.
I am confident that if the voter rolls were checked, they would find people that voted even though they lived outside the voting area, primarily because their heart is in the area even though they don't official live in it.
Possibly a large sign that says voting under false pretense is a federal crime. That may help prevent this one problem with the voting process. Those few votes could decide elections at times.
I am confident that you do live and vote where you are registered.
Well, it's obviously not foolproof...
But they also have verbally questioned me... even when they see a printed address, they have asked "Do you STILL live at...?" And it's interesting - even though a number of them know me personally, they still ask because it's part of the process to take every possible step to verify you're being set up to vote properly.
Also with regard to voter registration card: I recently had to get a new one. They apparently do not just use the same one year after year, at least any more. I think they are very conscientious about trying to minimize the oportunity for voting fraud based on where you live. There is no 100% fix, I believe.
RB
My point
The point of my questions was threefold:
Recognition of these points is not beside the point.
Rather it is exactly the point at which we must begin to address the problem of election fraud.
This is not the same as saying the problem has always existed so we needn't now try to fix it. For instance, recognizing the bi-partisan nature of election fraud might prevent one from looking for a solution to come from the very people perpetrating and perpetuating the problem.
Knowing the history, longevity, and many facets of a problem assists one in resolving that problem.
Way off, Brant
Let's see you come up with a case of voter registration fraud that resulted in an actual vote being cast?
voter registration fraud
Here's one that was researched by the Democrate controlled US House of Representatives:
In 1996, Bob Dornan ran for reelection to the House against Loretta Sanchez, a former Republican who had switched parties and run as a Democrat. Dornan lost by 979 votes.
Following the narrow defeat, Dornan alleged that Sanchez's winning margin was provided by illegal voting from non-U.S. citizens.
A thirteen-month House of Representatives investigation ensued, during which Sanchez was seated provisionally, pending the inquiry. A task force found that 748 votes had been cast illegally — 624 from non-citizens in addition to 124 that had already been thrown out by California officials.
This was not enough to overturn Sanchez' margin of victory and she was allowed to keep her seat.
However, in consultation with the INS, the House committee identified as many as 4,700 questionable registration affidavits; regardless, the probe was dropped before these affidavits were investigated.
(link...)
Voter registration fraud also includes voting dead people. The fraud in this case is not purging the voter rolls.
The point I am making is making is that crooks in both parties will game the system at all levels.
I am for anything that will clean up the system.
However, you have a valid point that the most insidious voting fraud is by the people running the elections as in cases where more ballots appear than the number of people who actually voted; or cases where the number of ballots (votes cast) is greater than the number of registered voters.
In the case when the people conducting the election or are counting the results are corrupt, is there any way to prevent vote fraud?
Personally, I cannot imagine anyone stooping so low as to try to steal an election (there is nothing in politics worth compromising one's integrity) thus I may have overlooked the bigger problem. You got me thinking about it and you are probably correct. Voting fraud is most likely the bigger problem - there are too many ultra partisans willing to lie and cheat to win an election!
This makes policing our voter rolls even more important. If we don't stop or catch the false or incorrect registrations, what prevents the corrupt folks trying to steal elections from "voting" those incorrect registration down the road in later elections?
The problem isn't so much
The problem isn't so much vote tampering or election fraud, which is probably rare (but certainly not unheard of), but more to do with the ability to audit the voting systems to verify votes are being counted correctly (i.e. ward, precincts, jurisdictions, ballot measures, races, etc. are all programmed correctly and votes are recorded correctly) and in the case of a statutory recount the ability to actually recount the votes.
Problems are more likely to be caused by equipment failure, software errors, setup, or operator/procedural errors than fraud, and there's no guaranteed way to detect it.
For example, in a recent Knox Co. election a fifty cent part fell off a machine cover and shorted out the motherboard of an early voting precinct controller. In the process of installing a new controller, they ran the election day startup procedure which of course reset all counters to zero on the new controller and all the machines connected to it. They forgot to retrieve the "backup" votes from the original machines, so 7000+ votes were essentially lost. There were enough votes to affect the outcome of at least one ballot issue, and maybe an election, don't recall exactly.
The voting system vendor flew in technicians who were miraculously able to remove memory chips from the failed controller and solder them onto a new motherboard without damaging them and then were able to retrieve the votes.
With a paper ballot optical scan system, all they would have had to do was rescan the ballots.
In the case of an audit or a recount, with a purely electronic system (DRE), you run the tabulation program again and you get the exact same count, every time. (At least hopefully.) You have no independent, manual way to verify if all the votes were recorded or recorded correctly.
With a paper ballot optical scan system, you can pick a random precinct and manually inspect all the ballots, run a manual tabulation, and compare it to the machine tabulation for audit purposes.
For a recount you can simply rescan the paper ballots and reconcile it to the "official" machine tabulation to make sure none were missed or incorrectly scanned.
Ok, so its the GOP
this time, are you with them, or are you with the TVCA? Who's keeping score? It's already been established that it can't be about the money, at least until someone makes an accounting of the cost that makes sense.
Link
Reg fraud?
There are many potential areas for abuse and fraud. Why do republicans hone in on the least likely to occur and most verifiable part of the system? Hmm
I cede
Your point is taken - I wasn't thinking of the issue as Dem or Reb.
Read my post in reply to WC above.
The last election
I went in, showed them my voter's registration card, signed my name, then voted. I did not have to show any other form of identification. Could this just have been an oversite? Possibly. But, let's assume for a moment that it wasn't. What would keep someone from registering with a name they got off of a tombstone?
It's easy to vote frauduently if you choose to. And, I am sure it happens. It isn't just because of the machines used.
In the 80's, I know a candidate who registered under aged voters; AND GOT AWAY WITH IT.
Verification needs to be more strict. It could be as simple as making the voter bring proof of address with them.
Let's take this a step further when it comes to fraud. Does anyone realize how many people are still on TennCare and live in another state? So whether it be voting, or insurance, we need a system of PROOF.
You only need to provide a
You only need to provide a signature in Tennessee, unless you registered by mail and only then the first time you vote.
(link...)
Signatures change over time.
Signatures change over time. This is very evident when people become elderly or have accidents or other life changing event. Even the best systems have flaws.
Wasn't advocating or
Wasn't advocating or editorializing one way or another. I was just answering your question as to why you were allowed to vote with just your signature and voter registration card (which isn't even required) and whether it was an oversight.
Hey, Neal
I understand and really appreciate your information.
I was editorializing the fact that signatures do change, my assumption that people do vote outside of their correct addresses, and that there appears to be some holes in the system in addition to those of potential electronic voting manipulation. Other issues include human oversight of the policies and procedures for enforcement. I am advocating for improvements.
Just other thoughts to consider.